Why would anyone be in search of Utopia? If you want to count dead bodies, those in search of Utopia have the biggest pile - 100 million, more or less, for 20thC. Communism. The search for utopia reflects the deadly desire to live in a fantasy ideology and divorce from reality, which is just too existentially daunting for the utopian fantasist.

Iraq is a bad scene. No doubt about it. But we, serious people, still have to protest when people working under a fantasy ideology come up with clearly ludicrous figures of 650 000 dead, figures for which there is just no corroborating evidence - numbers that would require much more than your 2-3 car bombs per day.

Get a grip, even when you're up to your nuts in guts crying "insensitive" and bemoaning ad nauseam over spilled milk - about what should have happened in 2003 - is not a manly way to face up to reality as it exists now. How do we make the present situation better? That's the question. For starters, not by taking obvious propaganda seriously, for the purpose of this propaganda is just to make a bad situation worse - to spite the devil Bush and enrage the Arabs.

I think your last paragraph pretty much said it all. "spilled milk?" And the straw man argument about the credibility of the report is just that, as I clearly stated above,

"So lets forget about the numbers for a minute. Even if the number is 300,000, 200,000, whatever... The lesson is that the situation has deteriorated in Iraq to the point where it is completely unsafe. The argument that pro-war people used to give is that it was unsafe living under Saddam. And indeed it was, but was it for the majority of Iraqi citizens. Did they live day to day in a terrordrome? I don't think so...

The numbers are not as important as the idea that you people dont give a shit. "Mission Accomplished," "Last throes of the insurgency," phrases that catch in the throat of every Iraqi that lives in the nightmare we created. This argument is not about Utopia, nor is it about evil regimes. If you want to discuss that, shall we discuss the 10's of thousands that "dissapeared" during our Dirty Wars in Latin America. I can put you in contact with some of the survivors of that nightmare. One that it seems our present administration wants to emulate. No wonder Kissinger is an advisor to these guys. Your argument holds about as much water as the levees in New Orleans...

I don't understand what is straw mannish about questioning the credibility of a report whose key figure is inherently implausible nigh impossible. I do see a straw man in the argument that "you people don't give a shit". I know what people I am, but you don't. Anyway, I do give a shit. As do the coalition service men and women who are putting their lives on the line in Iraq, only to be collectively slandered by some anti-Bush propaganda designed to make the do-nothing-but-bitch authors feel more righteous than those dumbasses who went and jumped into a pile of shit thinking that deposing a bloody dictator might be good for humanity. You don't have to tell me that war is hell; I know that. You do have to convince me however that you can offer a course of action that constitutes the lesser evil in a world full of evil.

What does New Orleans have to do with anything unless your who way of thinking revolves around scapegoating Bush? You're quite right that the number is not the primary issue; Bush Derangement Syndrome is.

I guess BDS is spreading, because I see quite a few Right Wingers joining the chorus. And I for one have never slandered the troops. But I dont consider questioning, "those dumbasses who went and jumped into a pile of shit thinking that deposing a bloody dictator might be good for humanity," to be slandering the troops. And BDS works both ways, I tend to think that people who continue to support his idiotic policies and corrupt administration to be just as deranged, as those who compare him with Hitler. I am something of an expert on the Rise of the Nazi Party, and Dubya is about as intelligent as "blondie," Hitler's favorite bitch.

The whole idea of comparing the slaughter of Iraqi's as "spilt milk," or praising them for "tolerating," the insane level of violence in that country is just DUMB!

Look Dave, my invocation of "spilled milk" did not imply any comparison - it was simply to suggest the figure of someone who continues to cry about something long after the irreversible deed is done, to the effect of exhausting energies that might be more usefully employed elsewhere. The intent was not to be callous. But that was not obvious to you.

Implicitly blaming the troops for some unknown figure of hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis is slander in my book, if you really don't have the evidence to back it up.

I've seen no evidence so far that you are smarter than Bush. But that's not to worry about since Bush has many, if not all, kinds of intelligence...

By the way, they've just discovered your lost city and we may have to rethink everything we thought we knew ;) http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/1768109.stm

"Implicitly blaming the troops for some unknown figure of hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis is slander in my book, if you really don't have the evidence to back it up."

Toby:
I dont think the report, "blamed the troops," for the number of deaths. I believe the report was quite explicit in stating,

"Violence including gunfire and bombs caused the majority of deaths but thousands of people died from worsening health and environmental conditions directly related to the conflict that began in 2003, U.S. and Iraqi public health researchers said."

But again, I am not arguing the validity of the report. It is clear that 10's of thousands of Iraqi innocents have died. Some due to malfeasance on the part of our military, but I would wager that the majority have been victimized by the general instability, and innability of our troops or the Iraqi security forces to gain control. Iraq IS in a state of simmering Civil War. And that state would not exist, had we not went into Iraq, or had we entered the war with a plan, OR, had our President and Secretary of Defense taken advice from the troops on the ground, and provided sufficient troops.

And honestly Toby, I tire of the Dictator argument. There is one in North Korea who apparently has REAL WMD's, and a regime in Suddan that is murdering people of color, yada yada... So the question is, if Bush supporters are so fired up about democracy, why dont we do something about those regimes, or march into Saudi Arabia and Democratize them... It's all bushshit and you know it. The arguments you make once flew when Americans were paralyzed with fear. Today, even once hard core Bush Supporters are standing up and saying... What the Fuck?

That is, those who have enough of a concience left to admit that this whole situation is FUBAR. As for comparing my intelligence, well other than being a lousy speller... I have run three companies successfuly, graduated suma cum laude, and have been a success at everything I have done in life... What is Bush's record. How many failed companies has he left in his wake. And if it were not for his Daddy, where would he be today? I rest my case.

Man, I cannot begin to imagine being succesful at everything one does in life. How can you succeed when you don't have mistakes to lean from?

As for taking out all the other tyrannies of the world... Of course, you've got to pick and choose. Resources Resources. Whether or not Iraq was the best choice or the first choice, I think Saddam would have posed a real threat to the free world had he remained in power. i think it is inherent in that type of regime to export the resentments it generates internally, by focussing people on an external enemy and bringing together various opposing parties in that common endeavor. WHich is why I imagine one day the Saudis will have to go too. But the left establishment in America sure isn't helping to make any such another endeavor likely.

I can understand someone wanting to vote out the Republicans - Bush isn't running again anyway. What I can't understand is anyone taking the present Democratic party seriously. You can probably count on one hand the number of responsible people at the top of that outfit. Life is full of crappy choices.

Two final thoughts...

"Man, I cannot begin to imagine being succesful at everything one does in life. How can you succeed when you don't have mistakes to lean from?"

What is it about you guys always wanting to put words in people's mouths. I never said I had not made mistakes. I said I have been sucessful at everything I have done. That does not mean that mistakes were not made along the way, and corrections applied to course, etc. Therein lies the difference, Bush will rarely if ever admit mistakes and therefore is cornered into sticking with failed policy and actions. And I..... "Can not believe anyone has made as many Mistakes as Mr. Bush and yet becomes President of the United States," so touche!

Second point. There are few Democrats who excite me, but after 6 years of corruption, scandal, lies, politics of personal destruction, etc. etc. I am ready to give the other team a chance. Sadly for you, I think most Americans feel likewise.

Well, if it's sad for me, it'll be sad for anyone; I have no personal stake in the matter beyond a concern for defending our civilization.

I was poking around your site, David, and think you must be an interesting person. Sometime can we forget politics so that I can come back and talk Freemasonry with you? Seriously, it is a scholarly interest of mine though I'm not a Mason. You say you are a student of the Nazis. I'm wondering if it was their use of symbolism that first interested you, and how much similarity you see between Nazi and Masonic symbolism (I ask knowing full well what the Nazis thought of Freemasonry.)

Sure we can. We can talk about anything you like. And in actuality, I enjoy discussing things other than politics.

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