I am looking forward to your analysis and will read the articles before I read your response.

However, you know I think that illegal immigration is a problem and, instead of keeping our laws the way they are, they need to be reformed. If immigrants were legal, they wouldn't be working for slave wages; they'd be working for minimum wage and above. And that would make it a more level playing field.

I don't have time to debate now, but I'm looking foward to what you have to say. Enlighten me. :-D

Good point, Erin. But what is to keep a fresh crop of illegals coming in and taking those slave wages, starting the whole mess over again? It's what happened in 1965 and 1986, the last two times we "reformed" our immigration policy and forgave a whole bunch of illegal aliens.

David's right. (And it's painful for me to say that.) The bigggest victim of illegal immigration is those people on the lower end of the socioeconomic strata, those who could use lower-paying jobs to get a leg up on the ladder to success. But they will never make a living wage when the job goes to the illegal.

Who wins that way? The employer, who saves an assload of payroll. The illegal, who finds it much easier to life off the books, with no taxes, no withholding, and no insurance -- just go to the ER for everything. (Several hospitals in the southwest have closed their ERs because they were going broke.)

I, for one, would like to see the minimum wage abolished and simply let the market prevail. (It already does -- do you know how hard it is to FIND a job that pays minimum wage? With unemployment so low, even McDonald's starts folks off a couple bucks above the minimum!) But the glut of cheap, under-the-table labor is KILLING a lot of folks who could really use that crud job.

Hope I didn't steal too much of your thunder, David...

J.

Jay, both you and David are right in pointing out that it is the people on the lowest end of the economic ladder who suffer. I absolutely don't deny that.

The problem I see--and I'm trying really hard not to be overly idealistic--is that illegal immigration is going to happen anyway. I neither claim to have the solution nor do I know of anyone that does, but our country is strong enough and our people intelligent enough that we can come up with a policy that is better than the current policy.

Illegal immigration is going to happen no matter what. It will do us no good to punish immigrants further. The way I see it, in life, we all weigh the consequences. That's how we make our decisions: what decision will be best for us? Or, sadly sometimes, which decision will be the least bad (I know I know, my grammar is phenomenal) for us?

Many immigrants will ALWAYS choose the lesser of two bads, and that lesser bad will be coming to the USA illegally. Because it is better than the poverty or peril or horrors that they are leaving back home. Many see it as the only way to provide for their family. And we all know we’re capable of amazing things when it comes to protecting our family.

And I haven’t even started on my belief that people are all human beings--regardless of their citizenship--and that all human beings should have the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It is what the USA was founded on, and I find it difficult to deny them that right.

But regardless of whether you agree with me or not on human rights, I think most of us know that our current policy just isn’t doing the trick. Making the laws even stricter will certainly not improve the situation. So again, I call for immigration reform. As I wrap my head around this topic (it’s a daily process ), I hope that I’ll know enough to be able to have an opinion on exactly what we should do. For now, though, I’m keeping my mouth shut. Because, unlike a certain prominent leader, I keep my mouth shut if I have nothing intelligent to say. ;-)

Peace.

Erin, the problem is that the compassionate approach has not worked. In fact, it can be argued that it had only made the problem worse. Strict enforcement has only been tried once, and it worked pretty well. Since that single effort, though, the "nice" method has been used, and the situation keeps getting worse and worse.

I agree with you about the rights recognized in our Declaration and Constitution should be universal, but they aren't. And simply tossing open our doors for anyone is, ultimately, self-destructive.

J.

My biggest issue is that this is gone on much to long and there are too many illegals of all nationalities to pretend we can just round them all up and send them back (won't even begin to address the inter-familial issues where half the folks are legal and half are not). I agree that their labor has undermined the wages of lower wage earners. I think that the majority of Americans didn't care because they felt that these illegals were basically doing the work that "lazy blacks" didn't want to do. It is becoming and issue now because they are weedling their way into jobs that working class whites have and, suddenly, we've got vigilantes upset about criminals.



But, I just cannot get into vilifying these people who have access to wide open borders, encouragement from their own government (one of our supposed allies) and assistance from big business (and small business too) to give them jobs that pay far more than they'd make at home yet less than anyone in America will accept. As far as I am concerned they have an open invitation and all the underpaid work they want. So, I cannot make myself blame them. I blame the folks waving the money and the incentive to come.



The protests began when, after years/decades of this working right under people's noses, people started calling them criminals and threatening to send them home. They've been all but invisible and now people want to act like they are sub-human scum. I don't think that is fair.



Do I think that the borders need to be sealed and closely monitored? ABSOLUTELY. But it won't happen as long as some fat cat is lining his pockets with the extra cash from having slave labor. Bush's friends won't allow it.



Do I realize that everyone's wages are being driven down? Most certainly. Mine are being driven down by high tech jobs being sent to China and India (please don't get me started on being out of work for a year and underpaid/underemployed for the past 3) but I'm not blaming them either. Who wins again? Big business.



When are people going to stop taking the path of least resistance and jumping on people with the least? Look at the big picture and look at who has the biggest share of the pie and who is watching the rest of us fight over the sliver that is left. I think that black people are the last somebodies who need be jumping on the let's blame the Mexicans band wagon.



I live in a county in California that is more than 1/3 Hispanic (legal and counted for) and am from Chicago where the population of Hispanics has now topped that of blacks. I know things are changing rapidly because of that but me attacking them is not going to help my bottom line if somebody else is still doling out the paychecks.



I think we need to go directly to the source of the demand for all of these folks to commit a felony by coming here. Cut off the illegal employers and folks will go home and/or stop coming.

Qusan:
I agree with most of your analysis, but I also get pretty pissed off when illegals start acting like they have a right to be here. Pah-Leeze! And I do agree that the way to stop the problem is to focus on the employers. But it is important to note, that if employement suddenly dried up for 12 million people next month, the welfare rolls would be overwhelmed, since I am willing to bet most of these people dont even have enough saved "here," to even get home. And I also feel strongly that the protest would be better and more rightously waged against their own corrupt governments, who have lined their own pockets and the pockets of other chorizeros, while their people are forced to migrate to El Norte to survive.

Wow.

Honest, David, I meant it when I said I didn't intend to steal your thunder. But it's nice to see that there are areas where you are sensible, reasonable, and intelligent -- i.e., you agree with me.

J.

"while their people are forced to migrate to El Norte to survive"

You've hit the nail on the head here, in my opinion. I agree with so many of your points, especially when you say that people should fight and protest for freedoms, rights, and the quality of life in their own country rather than in the USA. It would obviously serve them, their families, and their loved ones much better to improve the quality of life in their native countries.

However, as you mentioned (unintentionally?), many people are "forced" to migrate "to survive". In a more ideal world, they would be able to stay at home and fight their fight, but sometimes they can't. Because, even though they accept what you deem "slave wage" here, it's infinitely better than what they would receive at home. They are willing to live 15 to a house and be treated like trash (and the people that pay/treat them as such disgust me) because they are ultimately here for unselfish reasons; they want to support someone(s) back home.

I'm tired and a bit incoherent tonite, so I apologize. But maybe my point has been made.

p.s. I'm all for immigrant rights, but you're right: that sign is total crap.

"However, as you mentioned (unintentionally?), many people are "forced" to migrate "to survive". In a more ideal world, they would be able to stay at home and fight their fight, but sometimes they can't."

It's in my mind less "cant," than, "wont." They wont, becuase they know that to stay and fight will mean they will face the same kind of struggle my people went through, and they dont have the courage or moral conviction to do so. Despite the difficulties and dangers of crossing la frontera, it is infinitely easier than dealing with their own corrupt or innefective governments. Therein lies the gist of my argument, they have no right to claim the moral equivalent of the civil rights struggle.

I am an intelligent but poor african american black man. I served ten years in the US Marines and I have developed several inventions that would be enough to break the grip of poverty on me and my family but I cant even patent and bring them to market! I am disgusted with life in America and truly would leave if, I had a sponsor in a country that would allow me to use my intellect and experiences and profit from them. This country is a murky bog for poor black men.

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