You know what. Fuck Vincente Fox! I got steam coming out of my ears and a hangover from last night. And I am stuck in the middle of the Jungle with a 128k ISDN connection. I am going to write a post on this when I get back, but I am glad you posted it Beck.

Obviously an ill-considered remark by Fox. But let's consider it a little deeper, shall we?

The President of Mexico is merely voicing an opinion--likely shared by the rest of the world--that blacks in the US are largely excluded from economic opportunities in this country. And he's right.

Note, too, that Fox wasn't denigrating blacks--unless, of course, one accepts the premise that he's denigrating his own countrymen.

Certainly there was a better way for Fox to say what he meant: that Mexicans take those jobs most US citizens won't. However, Fox's underlying point is dead-on.

Plainly, conservatives hope to use Fox's inartful comments to deflect attention away from the real issue(s). If you wish to curtail illegal immigration (make no mistake--American business doesn't), you have to go after demand not supply.

Jade: I disagree with you on the notion that conservatives are trying to "deflect attention away from the real issues." I'd say that most conservatives (though certainly not the Bush admin) are genuinely supportive of efforts to cut down illegal immigration. Attacking Fox simply serves to highlight the issue. Whether their criticism of the implicit racism of Fox's statement is disingenuous or not, it's hardly an attempt at misdirection.

Beck: Of course the conservatives are trying to create a smokescreen with this issue. That's why they support the blatantly white supremacist group, 'the Minutemen.'

If conservatives really wanted to put a dent in illegal immigration, all they'd have to do is enact some really heavy penalties against businesses and employers who actively seek out and recruit illegals. But the truth of the matter is the GOP isn't going to go after businesses. And the GOP kind of likes the idea of low wage labor that helps keeps prices down.

So illegal immigration is all the fault of American corporations, and if only they'd stop hiring Mexicans, the problem would go away?

What's more, it isn't just the GOP who is unwilling to take on big businesses over their hiring practices. Damn near all politicians are scared of biting the hand that feeds them. I'd be happy to see a crackdown on hiring practices.

Besides, I thought it was the Republicans who were supposed to be rabidly anti-immigrant while the caring and inclusive Democrats welcomed our peaceful Southern neighbors. So which is it, do Republicans hate Mexicans or don't we?

Oh, and one last thing. I've no doubt that there are racists within the ranks of the Minutemen. But they are certainly not a "racist group" let alone a "blatantly" racist one. You might want to have some support before you start making such seriuos accusations.

So illegal immigration is all the fault of American corporations, and if only they'd stop hiring Mexicans, the problem would go away?

To a large extent, yes. Think about it; illegals cross the border looking to make a living they can't make at home. On this side, there is no shortage of businesses and employers who want to pay low wages with no benefits in order to keep their prices low and their profits high.

I'll bet you could easily leave your home or place of work and find illegal immigrants; I know I could. What's that suggest to you?

What's more, it isn't just the GOP who is unwilling to take on big businesses over their hiring practices.

It's not just big business; it's also the mom-and-pop family business that likes the idea they can pay an employee under the table and without any worries about benefits or working conditions.

And let's face the fact we like paying $2 for a head of lettuce instead of $5. We like the fact a meal in our favorite restaurant costs $15 instead of $20.

Personally, as a liberal, I say let 'em come in and work. They actually contribute more to the economy than they take out. And they're able to earn a living for their families. It's a win-win situation.

I've no doubt that there are racists within the ranks of the Minutemen.

Pretty much says it all right there.

Personally, as a liberal, I say let 'em come in and work. They actually contribute more to the economy than they take out. And they're able to earn a living for their families. It's a win-win situation.

Come to Kentucky and see if you still feel the same way when you find out that most of them work and don't pay any kind of taxes ... at all. They also cost tax payers tons with their crime rate and their rate of incarceration. Many refuse to learn to speak English and force city officials to hire translators or pay for their employees to learn their language.

They live 10+ to a house and tend to demolish them within 15 months. Landlords here have literally lost homes. The city comes in and demands that they fix everything they destroyed, the landlord cannot afford to pay for all the damages to make the house look "nice" again, and the city tears the house down after they force the Hispanic family to relocate to yet another house. Then the cycle starts again.

I am a Democrat and I am beyond tired of the immigration situation. I am not prejudiced nor do I "hate" them ... but, I live in a town deeply affected as a result of them. The unemployment rates for non-Hispanic peoples is way too high. And, while that is not all their fault, they do play a major role in that.

Also, one of our local plants was just in trouble again for having over 20+ Hispanic employees with the same Social Security number. A number applied to them by the Human Resources Department of that plant. This is the fourth time in five years that this has occurred.

Still, I'm just another privileged white guy. I'd be most interested in hearing the opinions of some of ISOU's other regulars--those for whom Fox's comments will strike a lot closer to home.

I forgot to comment on this part. I think Vincente Fox was just repeating what many Americans have already said ... unfortunately. I honestly don't think he meant it the way it came out, though.

But, the statement itself is not true. I live in an agricultural state. Blacks and Whites work the same jobs that Hispanics work. Hispanic take a lot of plant jobs as well, not just farm work. Farm work is affected, though. When I was younger, I used to make $8-10 an hour working in the tobacco fields. That was 13-15 years ago. Hispanics will work the same fields today for $6 an hour. The farmers, of course, prefer to pay that even though they can afford to pay the $8-10. Sometimes they pay the Hispanics even less and buy them beer to supplement their hourly wage.

At the plants Hispanics make less an hour, do not receive health benefits, and use fake documentation to work ... many times provided by their employer. They also have a big problem with leaving their kids in their cars, at night, in the parking lot while they work the night shift. I am not even playing. My brother is a supervisor at one of the local plants here and now they have to send security guards to patrol a fenced in parking lot, guarded by a shack, because of all the children that have been left in parked cars all night.

But, that is beside the point. I think Vincente Fox did what he should have when he came back and addressed the statement to say that he did not mean it the way it was taken. I don't think he owes anyone an apology. He stuck his foot in his mouth.

But, I do think he needs to be addressed regarding his continued encouragement of border jumping and violating US law. I doubt that is going to happen though.

Come to Kentucky and see if you still feel the same way when you find out that most of them work and don't pay any kind of taxes ... at all.

To say illegal immigrants pay no taxes simply isn't true. When they buy a burger, they pay taxes. They buy a shirt, they pay taxes. They rent a room, they pay taxes. They pay taxes when they fill up at the gas pump.

IOW, whenever they buy anything--they're paying taxes.

They also cost tax payers tons with their crime rate and their rate of incarceration.

INS studies show most immigrant groups are less prone to criminal activity than the US population as a whole. And that makes sense as the vast majority of illegals enter the US to work and make a living for their families.

They live 10+ to a house and tend to demolish them within 15 months. Landlords here have literally lost homes.

Anecdotal. How many of these landlords are charging by the head and filling a residence meant to house 5 or 6 people?

First, illegals do not, as a group, contribute more to the economy than they take out. The reason for this is two-fold. First, they send billions of dollars a year back to family members still living in their native countries. Second, while they do pay sales taxes, as you pointed out, they do not contribute anything in terms of income taxes, medicaid/medicare costs, or FICA. Third, they nonetheless draw down government benefits, both state and federal. Much of the reason that California is in such dire financial straits is that the state must provide education and medical services to literally millions of non-citizens. Illegals used to forgo such things--often at great harm & risk to themselves--but have learned in the past decade that they can take full advantage of government services without fear of deportation.

Next, the initial argument Fox made--that Mexicans will do work that Americans won't--is not only economic bunk, but also completely disingenuous. The work will get done, regardless. Indeed, the jobs taken by illegals often harms others within the (legal) lower classes of America. Think about how much it helped Rogue out to be able to harvest tobacco.

Next, my point about racists was that racist members do not make for a racist institution/organization (recall that your original quote was about the "blatantly white supremacist group, 'the Minutemen.'"). Democratic Senator Byrd was a Klansman, yet I'd be a fool to conclude that Democrats are de facto racists as a consequence. Regarding the Minutemen, I would argue that their purpose, intent, and founders' intentions were Not racist.

Finally, I rather liked your point about mom-and-pop stores being able to pay illegals under-the-table. I heartily support tax evasion whenever and wherever possible.

Incidentally, Jadegold, I hope you don't feel like you're being ganged up on or anything. I'm genuinely enjoying this debate.

Come to Kentucky. Just come on over here. They don't buy houses or pay taxes on them. They don't pay taxes out of their pay checks.

And, you cannot go to the courthouse here without seeing a lot of Hispanics waiting to go before the judge or on the screen, that is used for those in jail so they don't have to bring them in the court room. The most recent study here showed that a high percentage of them are arrested on sexual crimes ... having sex with minors, child molestation, and rape. The second most likely cause for arrest is alcohol related ... drinking and driving, disorderly conduct, and fighting. Our court system has been tracking this for sometime now as sexually transmitted diseases have increased 80% since the onslaught of Hispanics in the area, sexually related crimes have risen 73%, and alcohol related crimes have risen by 60%.

And, as for the landlords ... they don't charge by the head. Rent in my area is anywhere from $250 to $350 a month. That is base rent. Residents are responsible for their utility bills. Leases are signed by the head of household where they report how many people are to live in the home. The law states that there can be no more than 2 heads to a bedroom. They violate that law repeatedly.

But, that is just one of many laws they break. The first being when they enter the country illegally.

Think about how much it helped Rogue out to be able to harvest tobacco.

Back then ... it is what kept us afloat. And, it still is for many families around here. Kentucky is huge on tobacco and for poorer families, it is not only a staple of life ... but the difference between having meat during the winter or not. Men and women, Black and White, work the fields. Our local employment office is jam packed during tobacco season with men and women waiting on the trucks that will take them out to fields. More and more people are left sitting there every year since Hispanics decided that our local area was going to be home for them.

And, you are right, Beck ... most of the money they make goes home to their families. We have about three local businesses that cater to the Hispanic population here and the main service they provide is wiring money to Mexico.

First, illegals do not, as a group, contribute more to the economy than they take out

The National Academy of Sciences disagrees with you:

Annually, the average undocumented immigrant contributes about $1,800 more in taxes than he or she receives in benefits, according to the National Academy of Sciences, a private, nonprofit group of scholars performing scientific and engineering research. During a lifetime, this adds up to an estimated $80,000 more in taxes than they will receive in local, state and federal benefits.

Source: http://www.jotf.org/Media%20Archive/DailyRecord072304%20-%20undocumented.htm

Second, while they do pay sales taxes, as you pointed out, they do not contribute anything in terms of income taxes, medicaid/medicare costs, or FICA.

Again, from the same article:

Through the 1990s, the Social Security Administration reported contributions to its trust fund from $250 billion in wages from false social security numbers. In 2000, it noted that $49 billion in wages could not be matched to their database of social security numbers.

In Maryland, state Comptroller William Donald Schaefer says his office holds $240 million in unclaimed tax refunds from 470,000 individual accounts.

And undocumented immigrants are not eligible for the earned income tax credit because, according to the Internal Revenue Service, they must have a valid social security number to apply for it.

Next, the initial argument Fox made--that Mexicans will do work that Americans won't--is not only economic bunk, but also completely disingenuous. The work will get done, regardless.

Sure the work will get done, regardless. It'll get done at a much higher cost. You'll still get lettuce and veggies and fruit--you'll just pay more for 'em. And your offices will still get cleaned--only they might not get cleaned every night--maybe, twice a week.

Next, my point about racists was that racist members do not make for a racist institution/organization (recall that your original quote was about the "blatantly white supremacist group, 'the Minutemen.'"). Democratic Senator Byrd was a Klansman, yet I'd be a fool to conclude that Democrats are de facto racists as a consequence.

Sen. Byrd was (there's the operative word) a KKKer. He has apologized for and renounced the activities of his youth. Not so with the Minutemen--they actively encouraged and recruited from the ranks of white supremacist groups.

Incidentally, Jadegold, I hope you don't feel like you're being ganged up on or anything.

No worries. I'm always at an advantage.

And, you cannot go to the courthouse here without seeing a lot of Hispanics waiting to go before the judge or on the screen

Anecdotal. I'll bet when you go the courthouse, you also see whites, blacks, and other ethnic groups.

Go to a hospital, you'll probably see sick and injured people as well.

Anecdotal.

Only when you don't compare that to the increase in crime and those percentages I spoke of.

Only when you don't compare that to the increase in crime and those percentages I spoke of.

Then you should have no problem providing a cite or reference.

Swamped at work today. Will try to contribute more thoughts tomorrow.

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