In Search of Utopia
 Exploring The Hieroglyphics of Our Time

« A Message from a Conservative Friend | Main | It has Been awhile.... »

October 26, 2004

Stealing the Election 2004 Edition

"If somebody's dog manages to vote for John Kerry, then, in effect, Velma Thompson (or whomever) failed to vote for that nice man, George W. Bush, even though she tried. Whiskers cancels out Velma. Here's another way to make the same point. Each Bush vote is paired with a Kerry vote and they're both thrown away. The winner is the one who has votes left on the table after all the other guy's votes have been chucked. Pairing legitimate voters with voting felons, dogs, corpses, and Frenchmen has precisely the same effect on the outcome as shooting legitimate voters before they can get in the door of the high school gym."
The Fly Bottle
Interesting choice of words...


Read On...

Reader Feedback
One of my readers points out this... in an attempt to piss me off. LOL! The time to piss me off is long past, and I think that bit of tripe was answered well here... By a fellow PBAer.

Some Additional Links 10/27
Blogs of War Gives additional conservative POV.

Hungry Blues, offers some Historical Perspective

Greater Democracy discusses the cost of the destruction of Social Capital.

10/27
Noteworthy Op/Ed Piece in the Washington Post.

UPDATE 10/26
A secret document obtained from inside Bush campaign headquarters in Florida suggests a plan - possibly in violation of US law - to disrupt voting in the state's African-American voting districts, a BBC Newsnight investigation reveals.Election supervisor Ion Sancho believes some voters are being intimidated
Two e-mails, prepared for the executive director of the Bush campaign in Florida and the campaign's national research director in Washington DC, contain a 15-page so-called "caging list".It lists 1,886 names and addresses of voters in predominantly black and traditionally Democrat areas of Jacksonville, Florida. An elections supervisor in Tallahassee, when shown the list, told Newsnight: "The only possible reason why they would keep such a thing is to challenge voters on election day."

BBC News
Via Oliver


Some People are taking digital brownshirts too damned far


If Republicans think they can intimidate Black Voters in this year's election, they will soon find it is NOT going to fly. For my conservative friends who tried to pooh pooh dissenfranchisement of black voters in Florida in 2000, or spin it with claims that soldiers voting by absentee ballot were also dissenfranchised, whatever. It is NOT going to happen this time folks. This kind of bullshit will not stand.

Where the Hell is Malcom X or the Black Panther Party when you need them. Someone needs to gaurantee that people will be able to vote without being subjected to some stormtrooper who wants to interogate you becuase they THINK you are going to vote Democratic.

The Bullshit is starting to stink up the whole country now. What is happening in Ohio is an outrage. But this time it wont be allowed to stand. A lot has happened in four years, and part of what happened is US, the troops in the trenches who will not allow this to be covered over.

I am going to make it my mission the next days up until the election to fight this bullshit at every turn, and to mobilize as many progressive bloggers as I can to the cause as well.

So I am throwing out a challenge to progressives everywhere, and to those on the right who care about our constitution, and not just their guy winning. It is time we cleaned up the dirt, and go back to being Americans again, people who pledge every day to defend the ideals of our republic.


Pass the word on what is happening in Ohio and elsewhere, and trackback to this post. I will do likewise.

Others Blogging This subject

Debwire - with a particular focus on Florida.

Hungry Blues

Thudfactor

Democracy for California

American Black

Oliver

Atrios

Majikthis

The Flybottle

Mousemusings

Crossposted the The PBA Site.


UPDATE:
Okay, so one of my conservative buddies gives me the old, "what for," in my comments section. I was going to answer him there, but I will do it here, so everyone can see it.

I am sorry Marty, but I dont really care what my conservative friends think about this one. I have read the comments from Philadelphia about the rationale for moving polling places at the last moment. I believe the Republican Party official said he was insisting on them being moved becuase he did not want to go into minority areas for fear of being stabbed in the back. Please Marty, I am just as sick of this shit as you are, but I am also tired of the hypocritical bullshit coming out of republicans and conservatives so save me the lecture.

Ohio is cesspool of dirty Republican Tricks. I guess you would explain this:

Link

away as an annomoly as well, right? I like you and Chad, Rob and JT, Kevin, Johnny Walker Red, Boyd, Bo, consider you all friends, but why is it that you can run with the most hateful and slanderous bullshit about Kerry, and its okay. As soon as someone brings this kind of thing up, its lowering the discourse, I am going to call you on it... BULL SHIT.

Why is it, that none of you are concerned about the CIA report that hasnt been released. Or the lies on Iraq. If this country is harmed it will not be becuase some of us choose to question what is going on on BOTH sides in this filthy process we are calling an election. At least I have the decency to point out both sides. Point to me ONE post you have made where you seriously questioned the actions of your party and the administration, just one!

I am black man, one who's parents suffered to win the right to vote, and this is an EMMOTIONAL issue for me.

And when you talk about hypocrisy on NADER, PLEASE.... How many republicans would be writing checks for him and insisting he were on the ballot if they thought he would hurt Bush. No one is fucking stupid enough to even imagine that scenario. I noticed a couple of my conservative friends stopped linking to me a few weeks ago as things started to heat up on the election. I have never stopped linking to them if I find something interesting on their blog. So I really dont give a rats ass, it simply goes to prove you can dish it, but you cant take it. But you know what, you are right about the Nazi picture, it just gives people an excuse to blow off what I am saying. So I have changed it for a more appropriate one with a Link that will explain it.

You said, "What is also outrageous is the fact that the Kerry campaign and the DNC have planned all along to challenge the outcome of the election regardless of the outcome (unless of course they win every state.) Even if there is no sign of voter intimidation, they have as their stated objective to make the charge everywhere they think that they are not doing well. Of course, I wouldn't expect you to write about that. It's your blog, and that doesn't match your agenda."

My agenda is seeing a fair election, whoever wins. Democrats would be STUPID not to be prepared to contest the election based on things that are going on right now. Why do I have the feeling that all the conservative bruhah over it, is a preemptive strike to discredit such efforts should they be necessary? You have the audacity to question my fairness in my blog postings. I challenge you or anyone else to find a blog on either side who has attempted to be as fair and objective as mine. You noted the link to the conservative blog, How often do you see a conservative blog giving the other side via links, it is rare. So sorry Marty, save me the lectures.

I saw my people robbed of their constitutional right in Florida, something that infuriates me every time a conservative denies it. I also saw what happened in Philadelphia....It wont happen again, and if I have to join forces with the devil himself, (a reference to you and my other conservative friends constantly criticizing me for linking other liberal blogs who take a harder outlook on the issues) I will do so.

It IS time we woke up and realized we were all Americans, and part of that wake up call is to realize that no one candidate is worth subverting our constitution or throwing our American values out the window for!

Some Additional Reading

Pierre Omidyar (Founder of eBay) - Requires Registration

Aldon Hynes

Orient Lodge (PBA)

Greater Democracy

Gentle Breezes

American Samizdat

Why are we back in Iraq

Netpolitik

Prometheus 6

Cul

Loaded Mouth

Sortapundit

UPDATE- Via Jesus General who says....
Hopefully, one of the major papers will pick up on this ChronWatch column by Sam Wells where he makes the charge that "Kerry is lying to Negroes about being disenfranchised in Florida."

The Following is my favorite part of the Column:

Kerry is lying to Negroes about being disenfranchised in Florida. You may recall that it was Democrats in West Palm Beach and other Dem strongholds in Florida who tried to steal the election in 2000 by having people stuff several blank ballots in the voting machine at the same time and punching the Democrat Party slate--giving rise to ''hanging'' and ''pregnant'' chads (partially punched out ballots). If a single ballot is placed in a Vote-a-Matic machine, which is the proper and legal way to vote, it is virtually impossible to punch one's vote in such a way as to produce either a hanging or bulging chad; each punch is clean and complete, producing a perfectly punched-out hole. Knowing that they had stuffed the ballots in those heavily Democrat (and heavily Negro) areas, the Democrats demanded recounts in only those areas, hoping that if enough of the ballots with the hanging and pregnant chads were counted--instead of being discarded for being spoiled as they should have been--that their man Gore might win. At the same time, the Gore lawyers worked to disenfranchise native Floridian military personnel serving overseas from voting by absentee ballot on the assumption (probably correct) that most of them would be for Bush and not Gore

Negroes???? Why dont cha go all the way Sam Baby, and just say Niggers, or Niggras as you Southern Boys used to say. Oh I know he didnt... And you people question WHY I am pissed on this issue? A bit of advice, dont come incorrect at me on this one, becuase if you do, friend or FOE, you are subject to get your feelings hurt!

UPDATE III: And now McGehee, a conservative I know from Wizbang, thinks we are drinking Koolaide. You know what McGehee, all the pathetic little insults in the world are not going to matter in this case. Bring it on... This has me so angry, I can barely talk about it. You pooh pooh it all you want. But the we will not stop. I lived in the South in the Early 60's and I saw these kind of intimidation tactics. This is not 1960, and it will NOT STAND. So pass the fucking KoolAide.

Thanks to the Commissar for trying to lighten the mood. And for pointing out ballot irregularities. But Rooftop Report has a logical explanation. It seems that whatever comes up indicating Republican Dirty Tricks, the other side has an answer and points to something suppossedly even more sinister.


And now another conservative blogger has weighed in on the recent court decision to deny provissional ballots. He says....
When you register to vote, you receive a voter registration card, or some other piece of information that tells you where your polling precinct is. Why do they do that? Could it be so you know where in the hell to go to place your vote on election day? Could your polling precinct actually be a location relatively close to where you live, so as to make sure you have a convenient place to go on election day? Yep, that would be about right, except you see there as some scumbags on your side doing this. Sort of defeats the whole purpose doesnt it?

Update IV: And now Paul from Wizbang has weighed in, determining that Democrats are really trying to steal Ohio. Surprise, Surprise Gomer Pyle.

Update V: This is one of the fairest responses yet to my Rant... So much so that I want to highlight it as trully progressive thinking.

And thanks to Oliver Willis for giving this some attention.

Also a big thanks to Digby of Hullabalooo.

And Much love and thanks to McGehee for continuing to help push this issue to the top of the Tecnorati ratings. I could not be happier. I just knew you were a lefty at heart.

More Rightwing Outrage- Can ANYONE read this and tell me what the hell this guy is trying to say?

Posted by David A at October 26, 2004 11:45 PM

Trackback Pings

To Trackback use the following link:
http://www.grupo-utopia.com/mt2/mt-tb.cgi/1032

Listed below are links to weblogs that reference Stealing the Election 2004 Edition:

» Encouraging or discouraging voters from Greater Democracy
The underlying dynamic is that it appears as if the Democrats are trying to encourage people to vote and the Republicans are trying to discourage people from voting. I sure hope the Democrats are victorious in this. [Read More]

Tracked on October 23, 2004 08:50 PM

» Encouraging or discouraging voters from Orient Lodge
(This was originally published in Greater Democracy)

Back during the Republican National Convention, I had the opportunity to hear what a few conservatives where saying about [Read More]

Tracked on October 23, 2004 08:54 PM

» Do KKkers Earn 100 Bucks A Gig? from Why Are We Back In Iraq?
Today's New York Times contains a front page story, written by Michael Moss, entitled "Big G.O.P. Bid to Challenge Voters at Polls in Key State." According to Mr. Moss, Republicans have enlisted 3,600 people to monitor the election because they are "... [Read More]

Tracked on October 23, 2004 09:32 PM

» Stealing The Election 2004 Edition from Net Politik
David Scott Anderson writes: If Republicans think they can intimidate Black Voters in this year's election, they will soon find it is NOT going to fly. [Read More]

Tracked on October 23, 2004 10:05 PM

» Stealing The Election 2004 Edition from AMSAM.ORG
David Scott Anderson writes: If Republicans think they can intimidate Black Voters in this year's election, they will soon find it is NOT going to fly. [Read More]

Tracked on October 23, 2004 10:06 PM

» The Negro Vote In Floriduh from ratboy's anvil
I know, I know.... I derisively laughed out loud when reading a comment to an article over at ISOU posted by David Anderson called Stealing the Election 2004 Edition. The article itself, on the widespread attempts by the Repubs to... [Read More]

Tracked on October 24, 2004 01:33 AM

» The Invisible Man from Mirthful Ones
This sounds so bizarre as to be straight out of a Ralph Ellison novel, but I'm inclined to believe it since David Anderson checks his sources scrupulously (wink). So yes, I agree.....This Is Bullshit: Republican Party officials in Ohio took [Read More]

Tracked on October 24, 2004 04:14 AM

» The Negro Vote In Floriduh from ratboy's anvil
I know, I know.... I derisively laughed out loud when reading a comment to an article over at ISOU posted by David Anderson called Stealing the Election 2004 Edition. The article itself, on the widespread attempts by the Repubs to... [Read More]

Tracked on October 24, 2004 08:18 AM

» The Negro Vote In Floriduh from ratboy's anvil
EEK! I know, I know.... I derisively laughed out loud when reading a comment to an article over at ISOU posted by David Anderson called Stealing the Election 2004 Edition. The article itself, on the widespread attempts by the... [Read More]

Tracked on October 24, 2004 08:21 AM

» Show Trial #19 from The Politburo Diktat
"I am not alone. The victims stand here beside me, pointing at this bench of the defendants, at you, defendants, with their frightful hands ... I am not alone in accusing! I accuse together with all our people, I accuse the worst criminals, for whom on... [Read More]

Tracked on October 24, 2004 10:36 AM

» The Ranks of the Kool-Aid® Drinkers Will Grow from blogoSFERICS
If Bush were to lose this election, how many of his supporters would submerge into the fever swamp of "Kerry stole the election with voter fraud!!!"? Yes, we're talking about voter fraud and the other dirty tricks that the Democrats are ... [Read More]

Tracked on October 24, 2004 11:01 AM

» Everyone Drank the Kool-Aid from Sortapundit
You want John Kerry? Tick here -------> You want George Bush? Tick here -------> Well done. Now go get a beer. [Read More]

Tracked on October 24, 2004 01:47 PM

» Approved Party Ballot from The Politburo Diktat
Take a close look at this Party-designed ballot and see how it’s intended to correct the evil intentions of Bush voters. Note that the arrows for Kerry and Peoutka line up to the correct box, while the arrows for Criminial Bush (surprise!) do not. Als... [Read More]

Tracked on October 24, 2004 02:19 PM

» And speaking of attempting civil discourse... from Loaded Mouth
When even David is almost coming apart at the seems, I guess I shouldn't be too ashamed of all the f-bombs I've been dropping lately. [Read More]

Tracked on October 24, 2004 03:04 PM

» Speechless from mousemusings
Quite honestly, I'm speechless, except to say; my apologies for thinking we could have matured enough as a country to consider having a choice in our vote using IRV. We have much bigger underlying problems. For anyone who doubts, and I really don'... [Read More]

Tracked on October 24, 2004 03:18 PM

» Utopia Issues a Call to Arms from RANDOM THOUGHTS on Politics
A few days ago, I had a post titled "I'm Mad". Well, I'm not the only one. If you click on over to In Search of Utopia (ISOU), you'll find real mad. He's been focusing on the possible disenfranchisement of [Read More]

Tracked on October 24, 2004 09:30 PM

» Stealing the Election 2004 from democracyforcalifornia.com
Via ISOU If Republicans think they can intimidate Black Voters in this year's election, they will soon find it is NOT going to fly. For my conservative friends who tried to pooh pooh dissenfranchisement of black voters in Florida in... [Read More]

Tracked on October 25, 2004 04:48 AM

» Terry McAuliffe's Useful Idiots from blogoSFERICS
How dense can I be? Here I was, wondering why David Anderson and others on the far side of the blogosphere have erupted with such wild-eyed indignation over alleged reports of Republican dirty tricks aimed at "suppressing the black vote,"... [Read More]

Tracked on October 25, 2004 05:21 AM

» You, Too, Could Be A Poll Watcher from HungryBlues
The Republican sponsored Jim Crow 2004 campaign is in full swing .Decent, democracy-loving people are rightfully enraged . There is renewed talk about the important Election Protection campaign to protect voting rights. If you'd like to help but cannot... [Read More]

Tracked on October 25, 2004 01:13 PM

» The Invisible Man from Mirthful Ones
This sounds so bizarre as to be straight out of a Ralph Ellison novel, but I'm inclined to believe it since David Anderson checks his sources scrupulously (wink). So yes, I agree.....This Is Bullshit: Republican Party officials in Ohio took [Read More]

Tracked on October 25, 2004 03:29 PM

» There is a Forest from Truth, Lies & Common Sense
The Dems and the NY Times have both a September 10th mentality and an unusual ability to not see the forest through the trees. [Read More]

Tracked on October 25, 2004 07:26 PM

» Voter Problems Around The Country, Including Florida from DebWire
If there is anyone who doesn't see a potential problem with the upcoming election beyond a concern that their own candidate may not win, then open your eyes: Glance at Voting Problems Around Country Many states are facing legal challenges over p... [Read More]

Tracked on October 25, 2004 09:50 PM

» An update on the 35,000 Ohio voters challenged... from Loaded Mouth
Thousands of challenges have been withdrawn. The sorta good news? About 2300 challenges in Franklin county were rejected. In 2000, Gore won Franklin with 48.8% of the vote; Nader got 2.6%. [Read More]

Tracked on October 26, 2004 03:02 AM

» Stealing the election: Redux from Ray Garraud
David at ISOU has a very informative piece on stealing the election that is a must read. He's keeping the issue front and center and for a very good reason. Pass it on. If Republicans think they can intimidate Black [Read More]

Tracked on October 26, 2004 08:46 PM

» Greg Palast Accuses Florida Republicans of Black Voter Intimidation from Blogs of War
In Jacksonville, to determine if Republicans were using the lists or other means of intimidating voters, we filmed a private detective filming every “early voter” - the majority of whom are black - from behind a vehicle with blacked-out windows. [Read More]

Tracked on October 26, 2004 10:19 PM

» Tracking Social Capital from Greater Democracy
As online systems which track peoples reputation or karma evolve, goodwill may become more quantifiable. It will be interesting to see if such developments will lead to a better understanding of social capital, a strengthening of the countries economy... [Read More]

Tracked on October 27, 2004 01:55 PM

» The Rules from HungryBlues
Your first problem if you aspire to vote but your color isn't white and you live in the South, is how to get your name on the registration books as qualified to vote and to keep it there.
Originally registration was designed merely as a means of pre... [Read More]

Tracked on October 27, 2004 03:12 PM

» The Rules from HungryBlues
Update: David Scott Anderson took the time to explain to me something about blogging etiquette I hadn't understood before [Read More]

Tracked on October 27, 2004 08:03 PM

» GOP Challenges Ohio Voters from The Rogue Angel
Well, David over at ISOU has gotten a lot of heat for talking about Republicans challenging voter registrations in Ohio. I thought he might like this little piece I found over at CNN today. All are among the 35,000 whose eligibility has been challenged... [Read More]

Tracked on October 28, 2004 05:21 PM

Comments

Wow, David. I thought you were that guy that thought the discourse was just a little to un-civil and says that we all have to live together in this country when this election is over. (Well, except you of course, down there in Costa Rica.)

Wasn't it you who said a while back that you were tired of the wingnut/moonbat namecalling crap that has been going on? But then you have to go an play the Nazi card. I suppose you don't consider that inflammatory. Gee- I suppose the fact that I have volunteered to be a poll watcher in my county makes me a bad person? Does that go for all the other Republican and Democrat poll watchers that have been signed up in every precinct in the country.

Normally I see you as a pretty reasoned guy, but lately you have jumped right in with the same tired insults and namecalling that you would expect from the people you like to link to (Oliver, Atrios, Kos, Taz, Tony.)

And by the way- you are correct- what is happening in Ohio *is* and outrage. The fact that Republicans feel the need to have to watch the polls closely when over 35,000 voter registration confirmation cards have been returned to the Secretary of State from Cuyahoga County alone, because in their zeal to register voters, ACT and ACORN paid people to bring in voter registrations- with vast numbers of registrations coming in with fictitious names, bad addresses, dead people, non-citizens, multiple registrations for the same individuals, etc, etc, etc. Is it any wonder that we are concerned about voter fraud?

What is also outrageous is the fact that the Kerry campaign and the DNC have planned all along to challenge the outcome of the election regardless of the outcome (unless of course they win every state.) Even if there is no sign of voter intimidation, they have as their stated objective to make the charge everywhere they think that they are not doing well. Of course, I wouldn't expect you to write about that. It's your blog, and that doesn't match your agenda. But I also know that you tend to at least always take the time to read what the other side is saying, even when you don't agree.

And I do give you props for for at least linking to The Flybottle. Perhaps, his post sheds a little light on why we feel the need to have poll watchers, and the left's hypocrisy on Nader. You always prove your integrity with your willingness to to at least give consideration to the other side. But the Nazi reference is certainly out of line with your previous remarks on civil discourse.

This is getting too long- I'll try to post on this topic and trackback to you when I do. You've got my dander up now.

Posted by: Marty [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 23, 2004 07:06 PM

CORRECTION: 14,000 in Cuyahoga County alone and 35,000 statewide where the addresses didn't match the voter registration.

Posted by: Marty [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 23, 2004 07:22 PM

Wanna know something Marty, residency shouldn't make any difference whatsoever as far as presidential elections are concerned...the only thing that matters is proof of citizenship...birth certification, social security number picture ID etc...the usual. Everyone in Florida (which is where I live) is completely aware of the BS that's being attempted here again. A glaring example is the court discredited felon's list that Jeb Bush refuses to eliminate. This time though people are hipper and many county officals are refusing to use it.

Posted by: cul [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 24, 2004 01:11 AM

David, did the Columbus Dispatch article give any hint as to which side was accused of making the fraudulent phone calls?

As in my email, could be either one. If I missed a salient point in the article, lemme know.

Absent some hint or detail that points to one side, why link to it as if it was a Republican dirty trick??

--- One Confused Commie ---


Posted by: Commissar [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 24, 2004 02:08 PM

Trying to look at this issue from all sides here, and concerning the NY Times article Atrios posted: I'm in Ohio right now, and while this story is being reported, the local news here in Cincinnati has publicized showing a press conference from a local Democratic Party leader with her saying that the party well also have election monitors in place, just like the GOP's. Of course, given the strength of the GOP in this state, I have to doubt that their monitors will be a more powerful presence at the polls. But if they do indeed have 35,000 questionable names, then bring it on. Where's the proof that these voters are questionable? Who sent out the supposedly undeliverable mailings to these potential voters: the Board of Elections of GOP? I want to know where the proof for their claims comes from.

Posted by: tas [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 24, 2004 03:02 PM

Marty...

But the Nazi reference is certainly out of line with your previous remarks on civil discourse.

No offense, but have you checked out what your president's been upto lately? When he's doing shit like this, then the only thing I don't understand is how he's somehow above Nazi comparisons.

I mean that honestly; I just don't see how Bush is above them or how it's insulting to compare him to Hitler given what he's pulled in the last 4 years. And I hate the fact that we're supposed to be on the defensive whenever we invoke the Nazi card... Why not combat the argument with a counterpoint? Prove to me that Bush hasn't performed any actions that would make Hitler proud.

What is also outrageous is the fact that the Kerry campaign and the DNC have planned all along to challenge the outcome of the election regardless of the outcome (unless of course they win every state.)

Given what happened in the 2000 election, any candidate would be crazy not tohave some lawyers on their side before election day. And I simply don't see how you can criticize Kerry for fielding help from lawyers when your candidate did the exact same thing 4 years ago.

lately you have jumped right in with the same tired insults and namecalling that you would expect from the people you like to link to (Oliver, Atrios, Kos, Taz, Tony.)

Oliver, Atrios, Kos, and moi? I have to say, that's some prety lofty company for little ole me. Nice to know that you've been keeping up with angry, marginal left wing bloggers, though. ;>

Posted by: tas [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 24, 2004 03:23 PM

Wow- I write a little comment before going out to a birthday bash with my wife last night and come back to a firestorm.

I certainly don't mind you calling me on whatever you think you are calling me on, David, but first, I gotta tell you that I think you have mistaken me for a different Marty.


...why is it that you can run with the most hateful and slanderous bullshit
about Kerry...
That was my first clue. If you can find something hateful and slanderous about Kerry on either of my two sites, then you would have to consider ANYTHING critical or joking about Kerry hateful and slanderous.

Moving on.


You have the audacity to question my fairness in my blog postings.
I'm not questioning your fairness. In fact, I am always impressed by your willingness to look at more than one side of an issue, thus I gave you another side to think about. But perhaps I should rephrase one line that I wrote as my wife was tapping her foot that seemed to draw the bulk of your ire. (When you thought I as one of the Wizbang guys.)

It should read, "Of course, I don't expect you to write about that. It's your blog, and it's your point of view. "

Of course you are going to link with people you agree with. Do you really think I criticize you for that? I don't- that's what bloggers do. But I know that you are usually fair and I do give you credit for linking to and considering other views that don't necessarily match your point of view. Thus I felt comfortable commenting with another view on your site.

As for your agenda being a fair election- I don't doubt that for a minute. But do you assume that my agenda is anything different? Do you think that my concerns of voter fraud are any less important when it comes to having a fair election. Do you think that thousands upon thousands of falsified or questionable registrations in every state are no cause for concern?

Fine- you see it as just a smoke screen. I see it as a legitimate view from the other side.

And as a black man who, like you, also has parents (the ones I grew up with- not my natural parents) who struggled for their rights and whose grandfather was an attorney that fought many a battle for civil rights, I too take this very seriously.

Thus when I read that the Democrats plan is to make accusations of voter suppression and intimidation even if there is no signs or evidence of such, I think that is reprehensible and conterproductve to the cause of people who actually may be victims of such problems elsewhere. I have no problem with them 'lawyering up' just in case of real problems, but when the agenda (there's that word again) is to contest the election no matter what happens does nothing to further the goal of fair elections.

Posted by: Marty [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 24, 2004 07:44 PM

Oh yeah Tas- I don't consider your blog marginal. That would be a pot meet kettle moment for someone who has written as little as I have and only have two semi-regular readers.

Actually you are pretty interesting for an angry left-wing blogger.

Posted by: Marty [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 24, 2004 08:01 PM

Marty dont sweat it.

Posted by: David Scott Anderson [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 24, 2004 11:43 PM

Yikes, David. That's a powerful response from an article that didn't seem all that terrible. From what I could tell, the article claimed that both sides were watching the other for dirty tricks. Republicans want to check voters because they fear fraud (a historically justified concern); Democrats want those checks limited or monitored because they fear intimidation or harassment (a historically justified concern.) It seems pretty balanced to me, but I think you've overreacted.

I came to this site because you were generous enough to follow InDC Journal's example and give a forum to the opposite side. I'm still getting to know you, so I don't know if this is a typical reaction or an outlier. Either way, it doesn't seem like a fair reading of the article or the situations you cite, and fairness is what attracted me in the first place.

Given that you're a technology guy, surely you can appreciate the dangers inherent in the rapid registration of voters. Step outside the political realm for a moment and consider the situation from a data integrity standpoint in which municipialities have more registered voters than eligible voters. Would you want to go live with a system that you knew had lots of dups and obselete addresses? But if the deadline is unchangeable and the business people (in this case the voters) are driving the decision, then you take your best shot at keeping it clean and still make the deadline.

That's what my side wants to do. I think that's what most of your side wants to do, but I'm just afraid that the ones that want to cheat are in the inner circles. (Doubtless you feel the same way about my side.) But for someone who seems very willing to take people at their word, you seem to have suspended that for this news story. Is that really what you want?

Posted by: slarrow [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 25, 2004 03:01 PM

Slarrow, unless you are black and have dealt with this kind of thing in the past, I dont expect you to understand. These kinds of tactics will intimidate especially some older black people who have faced this kind of thing in the past. It will also slow the process to the point that some people will not have time to wait to vote. In that way it will impact minority votes, in areas where people have a hard time getting time to vote.

Posted by: David Scott Anderson [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 25, 2004 03:53 PM

If these things are indeed going on and they aren't just random incidents like the reverse going on, then they are of course tragic. However to actually advocate the use of figures such as Malcom X and the Black Panthers is morally reprehensible. Is violence the answer to solving problems that most likely stem from racial issues?

Malcom X tried that and it failed. The Black Panthers tried that and still do. It fails. Martin Luther King Jr. tried that and it failed. King realized this however and brought about change through a more diplomatic and peaceful means. We are all better for King realizing that violence wasn't the solution to end racial tensions.

Posted by: Chad Evans [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 26, 2004 12:27 AM

David,

"Slarrow, unless you are black and have dealt with this kind of thing in the past, I dont expect you to understand."

Do you have any idea what kind of deadly, dehumanizing insult you just leveled at me?

Slarrow

Posted by: slarrow [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 26, 2004 09:42 AM

No, and none was intended, but if you took it that way, sorry. What I do know what kind of deadly dehumanizing insult black people went through in Florida 2000, and in the past, and IT WILL NOT STAND, so if it is a choice between hurting your feelings and seeing my people once again dissenfranchized, I think you better be prepared to have your feelings hurt.

Posted by: David Scott Anderson [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 26, 2004 10:21 AM

Slarrow, unless you are black and have dealt with this kind of thing in the past, I dont expect you to understand. These kinds of tactics will intimidate especially some older black people who have faced this kind of thing in the past. It will also slow the process to the point that some people will not have time to wait to vote. In that way it will impact minority votes, in areas where people have a hard time getting time to vote.


Bull! You can't really use that line of reasoning with me now can you. And yes- that was pretty insulting. That would be like me saying because you are not adopted, you wouldn't understand the joy I felt when I met my natural father. I am sure that in reality, you would have an idea how it felt even though you have never experienced it yourself.


My parents are in their mid seventies and no way in hell would they let some poll watchers intimidate them. Remember- they are the generation that fought for the right to vote. In fact, even my 94 year old grandmother laughs at the idea of being intimidated by anyone watching the polls, because they got nothing on her. Poll watchers aren't there to stop people from voting who are legally exercising their right. There are there because of the history of fraud, the rhetoric of revenge, and the thousands of known fraudulent and fake registrations that have been paid for by the likes of ACORN and ACT. (Not that those organizations wanted all the fake registrations- I believe that it is just a by product of paying people to bring in names.) Older people are probably the least intimidated because they have been through much worse in their lives.


Note- The Dems will have plenty of poll watchers too, but I certainly wouldn't feel intimidated by them. NOt even by the union thugs like those who have been harrassing Republican voters in early voting in Jacksonville. (You probably haven't read about those, have you.) But of course, when looking at me they would probably make the racist assumption that I was voting for Kerry anyway, and leave me alone. And even then, at 6'4" and 275, I would expect they would leave me alone either way. But I digress...


So now I ask, when exactly have you dealt with this kind of thing in the past David? When were you intimidated from exercising your rights? I'm sorry, but I would be hard pressed to find many black people today that when going to the polls exercising their legal rights would be intimidated by people watching the polls. Especially if they are voting legally. And especially since there are poll watchers from both major parties. (Of course I can't speak for those who are voting illegally or are going for the second, third, fifth, and nineteenth times.)

Posted by: Marty [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 26, 2004 07:28 PM

Marty, you are so full of shit, and I say that with much love, cause if I did not love you I would be pissed at cha.
You can spin this all you like, but I know what I am talking about, and you did not even address the delays in the voting process or why the Bush campaign would have 18,000+ names of black voters in Florida and call it the "cage," list? Stick your head in the sand all you want Bro, but I am not, and I will not stand by and see any American denied their right to vote, black white brown, Democrat or Republican.
What is it with you guys that you just cant deal with the fact that you have scumbags in your party that will do anything to win... I faced it a long time ago about my party, and I feel a lot better about it.

Posted by: David Scott Anderson [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 26, 2004 07:47 PM

You may want to go back and read that article again (I read it but now I can't find it.) It was 1800 something on the list (with no race even mentioned although it was a area that had a dense population of Black people- and, it wasn't even Florida.) and they were questionable recent registrations where precict cards had been mailed and were returned.

I know cul thinks this is not significant, but why would a registration card you filled out with your address come back because of a bad address. (Kind of like in Ohio where over 35,000 have been returned.) This is a brohaha over one area when there are Republican and Democrat pool watchers all over the country. But of course, it is much more sinister when you can point to the heavily Black precinct and say those are the only ones being focused on.

Hell- we are having poll watchers in the suburbs in fourth and fifth ring suburbs in Minnesota (not exactly an african American stronghold.)

And yes- our scumbags are watching your scumbags.

Posted by: Marty [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 26, 2004 08:22 PM

Mind you ... I haven't read all the links on this and don't really know what is going on with some of it ... but ...

I can give you one reason why a voter registration would come back because of an invalid address ... the voter moved. I got my verification just two months ago. I registered to vote in this county two years ago when I moved here. Thankfully, I hadn't moved in that time, but had I ... the post office would not have known where to send my mail. Mail forwarding is only valid for a year.

Posted by: Rogue [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 27, 2004 01:00 AM

Been out of pocket today (canceled jury duty, sick wife, etc.), so I'll just throw this out because I know it'll rile David up. After he calms down from his initial outburst, maybe we can discuss the meat of the issue since it seems a pretty good naildown of this problem that's got everybody so worked up. Cheers.

http://www.willwilkinson.net/flybottle/archives/2004/10/voting_dogs_and.html

Posted by: slarrow [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 27, 2004 01:59 PM

*laugh* I'm glad you got some sort of kick out of the link, David. It seems to have actually spawned an interesting discussion over at Majikthise' site. Of course, she just talked about the first line, and she neglected to mention that category of voter who'll vote only if it's as easy and convenient as getting a snack at the local convenience store (which was Will's point, as he says in the comments.) It's a nice little emotional riposte, but it lacks a little something.

I was more interested in the part where Will says: "an unnoticed illegal vote for one guy (in a two horse race) is EXACTLY EQUIVALENT to scaring off a voter for the other guy." He also says,

"Republican vigilance about keeping illegal voters from voting is democratically equivalent to Democratic vigilance against Republican attempts to suppress the legal vote. Republican vigilance has the semi-intended side-effect of suppressing likely Democratic votes. And huge Democratic registration and GOTV drives have the semi-intended side-effect of canceling out a large number of Republican votes with illegal ballots. I bet I can tell from your party affiliation which you think is worse."

Now, if you want me to get as fired up about fraud as you do about intimidation, I suppose we can play that game. But before we do, could we acknowledge the truth of this statement? Maybe it'd cause us to cool our jets just a little bit first.

Posted by: slarrow [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 27, 2004 05:50 PM

Slarrow,

Thanks for the link. It was really illuminating.

According to the "writer", intimidating voters from voting is the same thing as preventing voters from casting an "illegal" vote.

Basically, you crazy right wing fanatics believe that, say, a person who votes accidently in the wrong district (to go to one extreme in example) belongs to the same category as a person who, say, stands in front of a voting booth with a burning cross and a sign that says "no negroes allowed" (to go to another extreme in example) because they cancel one another out.

You people need to have your heads examined.

You claim to fight wars to protect our freedom but you shit all over the freedoms we do have.

The fact is that you damn well know that the more votes that are cast in any election...means the better chance a Democrat is going to win. So you do all you can to keep the turn out low. Despicable.

And...you tell me..this fly bottle blogger intellectual dude...Why does this great thinker employ the word "dog" in a debate that concerns african american voters? I hope you guys link to it all over the Internet. It really shows your true colors.

www.whyareweback.blogspot.com

Posted by: Ron Brynaert [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 27, 2004 06:01 PM

Ron:

"Why does this great thinker employ the word "dog" in a debate that concerns african american voters?"

I really don't know whether to laugh or cry.

He uses "dog" because he was talking about a dog. To wit: "If somebody's dog manages to vote for John Kerry, then, in effect, Velma Thompson (or whomever) failed to vote for that nice man, George W. Bush, even though she tried. Whiskers cancels out Velma."

Then you tell me that I believe that an innocent mistake like going to the wrong district to vote is equivalent to wearing a white hooded outfit to a polling booth. And you're telling me I need to have my head examined?

The final "illuminating" thing you say is: "According to the 'writer', intimidating voters from voting is the same thing as preventing voters from casting an "illegal" vote." First of all, he actually did write that, so I'm not sure why you need scare quotes. Second, he did not equate the activities. That's why he said voter intimidation was a "semi-intended side-effect" of making sure people don't cheat when they vote. My side thinks that Democrats cheat, so we want them to play by the rules; your side thinks Republicans bully innocent voters and wants us to leave people alone. This quote is suggesting that we're both at least partially right, so let's stop pointing fingers and start thinking. Sounds good to me.

Posted by: slarrow [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 28, 2004 10:45 AM

The worst thing for you to say is "my people". What the heck? your people? Who are your people? Are you saying that a persons skin color makes them one of your people, your are just as racist as hilter, teresa heinz, richard butler, or jesse jackson!

Are you not an american? If not please leave and don't stuff a ballet in the box. If you are an american, than are you saying I am not? Surely being born in California by to american citizens makes me an american to start with....

When the term "my people" is used you are seperating yourself from someone else. I consider my people, those who are born a person.

Colorblindness does have its benefits.

Peace be upon you. I hope you read this post for what I am trying to share. I am not trying to harp specifically on you, but on anyone who tries to seperate people on basis of color, gender, or religion, etc... God made us all in His image. Jesus even talked and visited those who were not considered "his people" by those who he shared ethnicity with.

-Shawn

Posted by: debunked [TypeKey Profile Page] at October 28, 2004 02:14 PM

Post a comment




Remember Me?
Subscribe to this comment thread.

(you may use HTML tags for style)